Clayton Johnson: A Teen's Journey to Ultimate Joy in Today's Buzzing World

[00:00:00] Emie we're talking today with Clayton Johnson, who is a senior in high school in a private, or we say an independent school in Denver, Colorado, and there are so many amazing things to talk about here with Clayton. Um, Andrew and I are super excited and so thankful that you're here. And, um, I guess, you know, One really good place to start with would be kind of how you even came on our radar was, was through a program that your school has for, I think, just juniors and seniors, and they call it Ready Lab. Is that right, Clayton? And it's an independent program where if you are selected to participate, you take your entire semester or your entire trimester and you only work on 1 independent project that you are completely self paced at. You choose your focus and. It can kind of be almost anything you're passionate about and you don't take any other academics.

You're, you're just completely, um, targeted on one project. So Clayton, it'd be so great if you could walk us through, um, what your experience was with that project, your topic of focus and how you chose that.

[00:01:18] Clayton: a, it's a big project some people like start a business. So I've heard some people, like someone got like a pilot's license. Someone, everyone likes, people are interested in what people accomplish, right?

it's something that's tangible and if it's tangible, it's very easy. And see, I don't, I don't think that is the purpose of ReadyLab at all. 

Cause you drop all your classes and, I know that some people like, kind of like,they drop out the classes. So, it's kind of a relax and now they can kind of, okay, I'll just kind of do this. I'll kind of do that for me. I went in super motivated. I was already into, like, reading a lot of philosophy. And for me, I just wanted to continue this kind of commonplace book that I had started before. And this commonplace book, um, was inspired by a modern day philosopher called Ryan or named Ryan holiday.

 it's basically. A way of organizing what you read into different themes, um, through note cards. Right. And so like, I, I wanted to read a lot. I, I, I kind of reached that point where. I realized that I didn't know a lot, like my, my kind of ego bubble was bursting and I was like, I'm not very smart.

 I just want to know, I just want to know more. I want to know what do people think about, you know, in this world. So I developed that system for kind of organizing information. And that's what I went in wanting to do that. Um, and I did do that a decent amount, but I would say, you know, people are like, oh, that was your project then it's like, no, the project was. To have no project, the project was the whole point for me was that there was no goal at the end. 

 And I think the main thing was like a, it's the shift from a goal oriented attitude to a system oriented, oriented, attitude.

Um, I kind of read about this in this book called Atomic Habits, and they talked about that, right? If you train for a, if you train for a marathon, and you're training every day for six months, and it's like, oh, it's like a go, go, go, go, go, and then the race day comes and you do it and you're like, oh, it's great.

But then you're not like, when after the marathons over, you're not running anymore. And that's kind of the way I see school, right? You're grinding. You're grinding. You're grinding. I want to get this. I want to get this. I want to accomplish this, accomplish that. But then after that, like your curiosity is, your curiosity is gone.

If you think, if you think of curiosity is running, it's no longer there. After the race is over. When summer starts, you don't have that anymore. And then you're kind of bleh, right? So Ready Lab, the race has ended. The race is to teach you that the race is the end. The gut, like in the, in the spirituality, they say the goal is the path.

And the path is the goal, right? Because where you're going, you're already there. So like. You're, you're not trying to get anywhere. You're just trying to kind of, and I would say it's re fostering kind of curiosity within you, internal curiosity, just being curious about things. So yeah, if that, yeah, that's what I was thinking about.

[00:04:08] Emie I can't believe we're speaking with an 18 year old

[00:04:10] Andrea: I know. I know.

[00:04:12] Emie the same books that I like to read. That's amazing, Clayton.

[00:04:17] Andrea: So you started with not having a goal, but wanting to foster your curiosity. How did you direct that? into the topic that you finally ended up, um, I don't, I don't know, presenting. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:04:40] Clayton: Yeah, it's a great question. So I actually, I ended up, I had a lot of trouble finding out what I was going to present about. And I talked about this in my speech. I said, I went through like eight different drafts. I literally wrote in the, like the last two weeks, I just, I kept writing new drafts because I didn't know what I wanted to talk about.

Because to me, it wasn't one thing. It was like, I don't know if you saw it. It was like that ginormous mess, right? 

 I talked to one of my professors, Mr.

Gall. And I was like, You know, like, I think that if I, if I present one thing, I think it'll do an injustice to the rest of my, to the, to everything else that I've done.

 I said, I don't want to like get off this highway that I'm going on. I don't want to slow down. I don't want to slow down on everything I'm learning about. I don't want to name it. I don't want to talk about it.

I'm just going to keep learning. but then I I felt that, I'm not perfect. I felt that kind of that FOMO everyone was kind of like getting their projects ready and. I was like, I kind of want to share something that's cool. And so I kind of just. I had been talking about this idea of like this pyramid of stimulation for like a while, and it was one of those things that was kind of like

[00:05:44] Emie of what?

[00:05:45] Clayton: stimulation.

[00:05:46] Emie Oh, okay. Yeah.

[00:05:47] Clayton: Sorry. I don't know if I went from all the way over there and all over here, but this is what I ended up presenting about was this kind of pyramid of stimulation that I, I don't know if I invented it, but I created a way I invented a way of visualizing it. That was, I think, helpful to some people andduring this time during my, um.project, I was beginning to meditate like an incredible amount. I think it was like three hours a day. Like it was a lot of my time going into that. And, um, and I also completely like deleted, I deleted all social media. I didn't spend any time on my phone. I, I was started eating credibly health, hopefully all these different things and I started to talk to some of my friends about like this kind of pyramid that because this pyramid kind of inspired me to do a lot of those things. And this pyramid basically said at the bottom are things like that are not simulated all like breathing and then each one, each layer goes up so like the next one might be reading the next one might be listening to music the next one. Layer, layer, layer. The top might be like a concert or skydiving and all that, right?

So it kind of builds. And then the top of the pyramid, you know, you could be really involved in one of those things because it's so stimulating. It's so much external stimulation. But when you surround yourself with like a three or four, a three or four as in like reading or, um, meditate, many things might be like a two or one. Four might be, yeah, listening to music. So if you surround yourself there, I found that it could become more stable. And so. Um, I, I created this kind of like baseline, right? So if you have your baseline up at like an eight or a nine, like a concert or a skydiving, and that's what you need to have, uh, certain like levels of stimulation to, um, to kind of make you happy, you know, the dopamine reward system in your brain.

If you need that, you can't really find any sort of fulfillment in your life because you're constantly up there and you're constantly trying to go higher. So I kind of, I lowered all those things and that's what I ended up presenting about just because. I thought it was pretty beneficial and everyone kind of found it useful and applicable.

[00:07:40] Emie So since 

 people are listening and

not seeing your gestures with your hands, can you explain what that diagram looks like at the bottom and the numbers and what they equate to just so we're like kind of illustrating it for everyone?

[00:07:52] Clayton: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I'll illustrate it. So if you envision a pyramid, a 2D pyramid, and I would say let's do four layers. So cut it into four parts in your mind, four equal parts. And at the very bottom might be something like drinking water or breathing, just sitting there and breathing. That might be a one. And then if you go to a three or four, that's the next layer. That might be, reading a book. And let's just say the next layer, so one, two, three, four, let's do five layers, actually. The next layer is, um, let's say, Learning a song on an instrument. That seems like that was like my example. It was pretty stimulating or like going on a jog or going on a walk with your dogs.

I would say that's around there. And then the next layer might be, I would, I use this one a lot. Scrolling on TikTok, like seven or an eight or like watching Netflix. Those are pretty stimulating activities. And then a 10, let's just say is skydiving. So those five layers, just visualize those in your head. And imagine like this purple line on the right. And our brains need a certain amount of stimulation to stay, or to, uh, get the satisfaction out of doing an activity. So let's just say you're sitting at around a 5, um, you're sitting at this 5, and you, and this is the point where you could go learn something on an instrument, and it would give you enough stimulation to give you that dopamine to make you enjoy it, to not get distracted, right?

Like, you notice that if you do really unstimulated activity, if you just sit there and stop. your brain's just going to be going haywire. So let's just say you're at a five, but then let's say you go on Tik TOK for like an hour. And then that raises your baseline to like a seven, because as you get, as you use more stimulating activities, your brain needs more and more and more.

So now that you're sitting at a seven, now you really can't go back down to reading a book or learning something on an instrument because your brain needs too much to kind of keep going. So does that kind of paint that picture? Would you say,

[00:09:43] Andrea: Yeah. So, Clayton, looking at this pyramid, Would you say that when you or any of the kids your age are focused on, let's just pick a random number, five or above, those more stimulating activities that are releasing more dopamine to get you more enjoyment, that that's also creating more anxiety in their life?

And then if you go down the lower portion or the broader portion of the pyramid, you're then able to bring the, that anxiety and that external pressure down because you're getting more fulfillment internally.

[00:10:27] Clayton: for sure. if you just think about the way our brains evolved and like those really strenuous activities, 3000 years ago, if you were constantly like hunting or chasing a line, you never had time to relax or rest. And this is, this is a problem that's extremely widespread. Obviously people have trouble sleeping. Obviously a lot of people have trouble just kind of being by themselves and not doing anything. And when people say, oh, I'm just going to go relax, they don't really mean it. They're going to go watch some sort of show.

Or something on their phone, so it's not relaxing because your brain, you think it is because you're going mindless and what happens is when something is that stimulating like an eight or a nine, you can just turn your brain off because your brain is just going to attach to what it's seeing and when it becomes like that, you can never have time to rest and actually I've noticed a lot of my friends just can't really read for very long

because their brain had been sitting in like an eight or a seven for a long time. And, at the top of the pyramid, your baseline moves around a lot quicker.

Let's just say you did like a nine level activity, like you were at a concert for like an hour, like an hour, or maybe even 30 minutes. That would raise your baseline really quickly, but let's just say if you're like a, you know, a one and you're just sitting there focusing on your breath. Or and then you're and then and then you go and you do like a reading activity.

It moves super slowly. I don't know if you if you can imagine that, but if you're just kind of like you're going from a state of kind of meditation into like a reading activity. It takes a long time to like run out of that, I would call gumption that kind of like thing that in your mind that says you're not bored yet.

Right. It takes a really long time and you could probably go there for as long as you really wanted until your legs started telling you you needed to move like three or four hours, right? 

 So the top, it's like something vibrating, you know, very quickly like a, like a, like a bird flapping, like,

[00:12:20] Emie hmm.

[00:12:21] Clayton: then at the bottom, it's like, It's very monotonous, and I would say that that that bird flapping thing is like the visualization or like what it would look like to visualize anxiety, right?

It's like that. And down here, you're much more balanced. So,

[00:12:36] Emie Clayton, a lot

of, a lot of young people feel like, as an example, my kids included, if we're sitting in a waiting room of a doctor's office, waiting to get called in, to sit there without holding and looking at your phone, they say, I'm so bored, I can't, I can't sit like that. Um, but what you're advocating for or encouraging is what some people would say feels like boredom.

What do you say about that? What if, if one of your peers said, but that's boring? I can't, I can't just be bored.

[00:13:10] Clayton: it's a, I think it's a ginormous fear of being bored that we're all struck by, because when you're stuck at the seven or eight, it's so hard to go down. it's because it's a drug, you know, it's, it's

arguably an addiction that you can't even go cold turkey on or else it's like, it's like the withdrawal symptom is boredom. Do you know what I mean?

Right. Like, it's almost like if you're sitting in a seven or an eight, that's like quitting nicotine when you smoke a pack or you're smoking a pack a day of cigarettes or you're vaping a lot. Um, quitting nicotine like that, you can't just kind of quit because then your brain searching for that.

It's the,

it's the exact same thing. this is a funny thing because when I sit in the waiting room, I have really no desire at all to go on my phone. I've completely broken that addiction. I have no, like, I really never crave being on my phone unless I'm, you know, I still notice it sometimes and I'm waiting for an email back from someone or just to check if someone had called me because people get really upset at me because I never on my phone.

So they can't really

of me. Um, so if I'm sitting in a lobby, I, you know, there's always some sort of plant to look at I'll look at like a plan and I'll find things that I admire about it. I mean, if you really think about it, a plant, Is the reason that you are alive. And so, you, you like, when I breathe in, I can thank that plant for giving me oxygen. Because it does give me oxygen. it's just like, small things like that. And then I'll notice some, I'll sometimes just like, stare at people.

Not stare in like a weird way, but just kind of, give them like a, an impassive glance, because I'm trying to like, I'm trying to learn about them. You know, why do I think they're in here? What are they, what are they thinking about? Are they even thinking or are they looking at their phone? And it's very rare that I catch someone who's just kind of looking around like me. It's so, it's so, you know, it's very, it's very odd because no one ever really look.

[00:15:04] Emie you're focusing on other

things. 

[00:15:05] Andrea: okay, you said you've been practicing this for a year. What, how did you go step by step, what are some first steps that you, that you did to help, um, get out of that pattern of constantly being stimulated?

[00:15:23] Clayton: That's, that is a great, that's such a great question because I probably two years ago, I deleted like tick tock. So, those kind of seeds, I would call them seeds have been planted earlier. And. I would say that I went through sort of like this process 

 I would go through phases where I would delete TikTok and then get it back or delete Instagram and get it back, delete Snapchat, then get it back. And I remember, like, it being, it was difficult. It was very difficult to, to break that. And you have to have, you have to have a lot of discipline, but I actually remember 

There was a book that said, I don't even know what it was called, but it said, you know, if you refuse pizza or some sort of sweet or something that's not very good for you, but tastes good like all day, At the end of the day, all that builds up, all that restraint builds up. And at the end of the day, that's when you're like, that's when you break down

and you're like, yeah, I'm just going to have the pizza and ice cream.

 So it's less about having the discipline to refuse and it's more about completely eliminating the distraction and that. Involves kind of creating activities in a space where you can distance yourself from your phone comfortably, it's funny because so much of our attention is taken up with our phones when you're given that free time, you will not know what to do. You'll be you'll be surprised at yourself. You're like, I don't know, like, what do I want to do? Like, that's a little bit weird.

 there's a lot of mental energy that you're going to have to learn how to, how to harness, how to control. So one of the things is to develop new hobbies and that's what I did. I spent a lot of my time playing guitar now, which I would have never been able to do before.

 And so it's learning to fill your time with other things, right? 

 because that's the excuse that I hear a lot.

I'll ask my friends like, dude, why, like, why are you on your phone right now? And they're like, well, what else, what else is there to do?

okay, we'll find something, you know, find something, you know what I mean? So that's, that's the first step. First step, you need to eliminate distraction completely.

Obviously delete the apps, if possible, one at a time, probably, probably delete TikTok Snapchat, because Snapchat, that's the last one everyone gives up. If you were to give one up,

[00:17:28] Andrea: the hierarchy of things.

[00:17:29] Clayton: oh yeah, for sure, Snapchat, and then TikTok's at like the bottom, but then they'll just go to Instagram Reels.

Or then they'll get, and then if they delete Instagram reels, then they'll go to Snapchat reels. It's, and then if they delete that, then they'll go to YouTube. So it's the same, it's all the same thing. Everyone's like, Oh, I deleted TikTok. It's like, well, you're on Instagram reels. So isn't that the same, but I don't, I don't like to judge. So.

[00:17:49] Andrea: Clayton, it sounds like you had to also learn. how to be comfortable in your discomfort for a while.

[00:17:59] Clayton: Yes. Oh gosh. Yes. this isn't something that I would say is super applicable to most people, because I don't think that many people my age or just many people in general want to start meditating, but that's something else that really helped to move this process forward. And it's. It's something about, you know, sitting there. I do this kind of yoga practice and every time the instructor has a sit there for three minutes at the start and just say, this is probably the hardest part of the practice is just sitting there and not doing anything

and just being okay with the way your thoughts are moving because they are, they do move. they're going to go crazy. And you don't even, realize that because they're always sitting there. Stimulated. Um, so just sitting there, it's like the hardest thing. So really it just, it takes a lot of practice. And I've, you know, I probably for the last year I've meditated on average for an hour and a half a day.

 if someone's listening to this, that sounds pretty inapplicable to them, right? Because an hour and a half, it's like, gosh, I don't have 15 minutes to spread meditation. Like, this kid's doing an hour and a half, like, he's just different, you know, and, you know, I am like, that's my priority. I've done a lot of research into Eastern literature. I want to go live in a monastery. For a few weeks and I Yeah, I lived with monks for for three weeks, I believe and did you know, I worked I did like a garden I meditated like seven hours a day

um,

[00:19:21] Andrea: Stop for a minute. Stop for a minute.

[00:19:24] Emie it

[00:19:25] Andrea: there for three weeks.

I find that absolutely fascinating. What would you say you learned in that three weeks?

[00:19:37] Clayton: This will be funny because I learned that I didn't want to be a monk

[00:19:40] Andrea: Okay. That's honest.

[00:19:42] Clayton: like i'm just gonna be honest. It was the hardest thing It was one of the hardest and most difficult times of my life it's very hard to describe what it's like to be alone with your thoughts for that long Not having very much human interaction, and just sitting with yourself for that long is like, you know, sitting with yourself for ten minutes can be, can be challenging.

 I have this thing, 

 it says everything in moderation except chocolate, but

[00:20:10] Andrea: Okay. I agree with that.

[00:20:11] Clayton: and I keep that in my head. And that was not moderation. Like I had no balance in my life. I went from like having all these activities, all these sports, all this guitar, all these, you know, hanging out with friends to like literally having none of that. And it's honestly that saying that says you never really know what you have till it's gone.

 And when you go and you do that, boy, that, that, that was a reality check. it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

[00:20:36] Emie What does come up when you're alone with your thoughts for seven or eight hours a day?

[00:20:40] Clayton: um, when you get rid of all the distractions. And you just sit with yourself and you create kind of a meditation practice. you just start to notice thoughts and you just start to be aware of them. But when you're with them for that long and you're, you're always aware of them, and you're not equipped with skill, like the skill, like, because you're, you're almost, you're, you're, almost going into a field where you have the, the external captures your attention for the first 15, 16 years of my life, right? That's my attention. I don't have to consciously direct my attention towards anything. That's how it is, right? TV or just really any activity, video games. I remember I used to do a lot of video games and when there's nothing to capture your attention. Your attention is directed inwards, and it's very difficult to kind of be with your thoughts for that, and so like, it's nothing, no thoughts in specific, but it's just the fact that you have to sit with them, and it really stinks when you realize that you can't stop them, I noticed, I really wanted to start changing them to start making them be more positive and to start trying to, you. Make them into what I wanted, but the thing is, I didn't even really know what I wanted my thoughts to be. I just wanted them to stop or to be, to be peaceful. Just stop, please.then that's when you, you can regress very quickly back into those activities of, you know, watching a movie or just reading.

I didn't have that discipline.

I wasn't I wasn't ready for that. Honestly.

[00:22:19] Andrea: 

[00:22:19] Emie: I kept thinking about when you're talking about that awareness of your thoughts, did you go any further with awareness of your thoughts in a way to mitigate them? Exchange them for better thoughts, ditch out ones you don't. Did you talk about anything or think about anything

[00:22:35] Clayton: Oh, yeah, so the monastery I went to actually had a sort of connection to religion that I had never really um had I would say that I grew up in a very non religious household Um, so i'd never really thought about god I mean I had thought about it, but i'd never had any faith of any sorts But, um, at the monastery, they, we prayed. And we would pray before meals and all sorts of things. We would chant in Sanskrit And then I would ask them for advice, right? Because, you know,

obviously they're monks, so they're very wise. And so they would just say, you know, ask God to make your thoughts slow down. Ask God and so I tried that and I, I kind of, I didn't forget about this part of our experience, but it's kind of coming back to me and that was the way that I aimed to try to control my thoughts in better ways or to make it so that negative thoughts would stop because I have OCD.

So that's a huge part of. Why I began meditating is these, uh, intrusive thoughts that are very bothersome. So when you become aware of them, them even more, you know, you're already aware of them when you have OCD. But when you become that aware of them, it gets harder. So, I started asking God, 

And it really didn't work for me. That was like one of the big reasons I was actually planning on staying there for a month. I left like a week early because I that aspect of it.

I wasn't immensely comfortable with and it didn't seem to resonate very deeply with me and not to say that there was religion or anything that they like worship was was wrong. It just wasn't like what I wasn't what I believed.But now I have different techniques like, for example, one of them. is developing distance between you and your thoughts. One of the biggest reasons thoughts bother us is because we think we are the thing that is thinking.

We identify with the mind, um, when it thinks. So if you have an intrusive thought, like someone who has OCD, you can say, oh, like, what if I just turned and, um, You know, flew off the highway, I would die, and then all this horrible stuff would happen.

that's an OCD intrusive thought. And everyone has those sorts of thoughts, but an OCD person obsesses over it. Um, and I believe that the OCD person would obsess over it a lot because, um, they identify very strongly with their mind, what it's saying. Oh, is that me? Wait. Because if it's not you saying that, it's like a cloud. It's just like something passing by. Outside. But when you think it's you, that's the problem. And it's the same thing that applies to our bodies too. When you think that the thing that is injured is you, then you have a big problem when you get hurt, but if it's not you, if you're something else, if you're something deeper, something more than just the brain and the body, then when the, when the mind goes crazy or when the body gets hurt or when the body, you know, starts doing things that gets older, then you don't really mind as much. And so that's the technique that I take now. Is to remind myself that I'm not it and try to develop distance, try to develop sort of like an aerial view, more space between the mind instead of sitting in it. 

[00:25:38] Emie: How would you coach one of your peers? You, you've got a buddy your age who also has OCD, intrusive thoughts. Um, anxiety is, you know, similar in some ways. How would you coach them? to understand what you're saying about getting space away from your thoughts, that you're not your thoughts. How would we do that?

[00:25:59] Clayton: the 1st thing I will say is that, um, although I've made, lots of progress in my journey with my thoughts. I am obviously not an expert. And I still do struggle with these things. And that's, that's what a lot of people are like, Oh no. Like you found inner peace, right?

Like you went, you know, that's what my friends will say. Like, I'll get like kind of a little bit frustrated on the tennis court, right. When I got back from the monastery and everyone's like, Oh, but you found inner peace. And they would kind of be messing with me. And I'm like, no, no, it's, it's, it's a lifelong process.

I want to say that before I would say anything to like give advice to anyone, because. I'm still working on it myself and so I can't give like 100 percent perfect advice because if I were to ask myself I couldn't give myself perfect advice because I'm still struggling with These issues and into less severity, definitely, and definitely to less severity.

So, what I would recommend for, and this is where this is actually kind of where psychology and Eastern traditions kind of mixed for me was kind of interesting. I read this book called brain lock and it was about OCD and it, talked about a four step technique that, that they use that this is scientifically would change your brain.

It's sort of a cognitive behavioral therapy type technique. Right. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it's like you relabel it, reattribute it. It's like the four R's relabel, reattribute, and I'll explain them. Relabel, reattribute, refocus, revalue.

That's what it was. And this is funny because the first thing that they have you do is they say, you know, when you have an intrusive thought, they say, okay, relabel it, that's an obsession. So your brain knows it's like, no, that's no, that's, that's not a real thought really. And then you're like, uh, Relabel, reattribute, and then just say, okay, no, that's not, and then the most important step to me was saying, that's not me, that's OCD.

Like, they would, that's like a catchphrase they had in the book, that's not me, that's OCD. It's happening because there is a disease in my brain that causes my brain to send a glitch signal to my awareness. And then it would say to refocus on something, anything for like 15 minutes and then revalue, you know, you look back and you reflect and over time you develop more distance.

And so I started practicing that. And then I got into this other sort of spiritual tradition, kind of separate from that, just because I was interested. I took an online class called Inner Engineering with Sad Guru. he said, um, No, it's all thoughts. It's not just OCD.

That's all thoughts. All thoughts are not you. It's just something that's, it's a phenomenon. It's, you separate yourself from it. So slowly, I actually did a meditation.

I did a meditation technique where I would breathe in, say, I am not this body, I am not the mind, over and over again, for, I think it was like 10 minutes. And that kind of chanting would repeat that to myself, so that when, and during the day like I feel anxious, oh no, there's that thought that's bothering me, oh, and then you kind of are like, no, like, that's not me. That's just the mind like you, it's all right. So you can slowly you develop that distance, right? That I'm talking about. And that's kind of, kind of cool how they connect psychology and then spirituality. And I was like, that's really cool.

[00:29:06] Andrea Okay. Clayton, you're going to probably smack me across the face, but I don't care if I'm not my body and I am not my thoughts. Who am I?

[00:29:16] Clayton: So, so, okay. I do want to say,

[00:29:20] Emie: Clayton next year.

[00:29:21] Andrea I know.

[00:29:23] Clayton: uh, so yeah, no, so I, I do throw around these, these things that, I've thought a lot about. So I, I, I don't assume that, people will get it immediately or you don't have to agree with me. Like, that's just what's helped me and the way I see it. I will say that on a lot of these, again, like to kind of bring myself. Way down like this is these are extremely advanced kind of Spiritual concepts that I've only just begun to grapple with like who we are. That's the question. We're all askingif you know who you are, then you got everything figured out, one of the quotes in my journal the other day was like life's eternal homework is to know yourself like learning about yourself that's just What you're always doing if you're, you know, and so A lot of this is coming from SadGuru through my brain, through my mouth, like I'm not, I don't actually know these things. And so when we, when we teach about things, oftentimes you'll just teach about what you heard and that's what I'm going to do right now. Cause you're, you're asking me and because like I'm telling you, because this is just what I've heard.

 Um, and the way I see it is like, okay, if I'm, I'm not the mind, because if I sit there and I say, mind, focus on that. And then I say, and then I try to get to focus. And then it doesn't focus. To me, that means I'm not the mind. To me, that means, okay, well, the mind is probably something separate for me. It's not doing what I'm asking it to do. That's, that's the way I see it. Like, I'm like, okay, well, focus. Like, just think about that.

And then it, there it goes, again.

[00:30:55] Emie: Yeah.

[00:30:56] Clayton: So that's the way I prove it.

[00:30:58] Emie: have you ever read The Untethered Soul?

[00:31:01] Clayton: Oh my gosh, um,

[00:31:02] Emie: it? Andrea Untethered

[00:31:04] Clayton: not read it.

I've heard of it.

[00:31:06] Emie: that most profoundly. And he explained this, answered your question, Andrea, because he goes through the same thing that Clayton did, challenging what is, what isn't, what is of the mind, what are the thoughts, and it backs you into a spot where you go, because you can observe those thoughts, you're not them.

And so, in fact, you are portion, the soul, the part that is the observer. That can see those as separate and I think Clayton's point about separating yourself from your thoughts. I'm not my thoughts. It is not all that is. It is not my ultimate truth and reality is so important. I think in, um, for anyone, but certainly to be able to have a young person catch on to that and understand that it's life changing. I mean, I think that's step one is to separate from your thoughts like that. And make those observations

because, yeah, a lot of books will say you are, you are that observer

that can say, 

[00:32:07] Andrea in back to your pyramid, is that when young people or old people are distracting themselves by all of that stuff that's happening in the top of that pyramid, they're not allowing themselves to even recognize that they're not those thoughts. They're just distracting. Distracting, distracting, distracting.

[00:32:30] Emie: Yeah.

[00:32:31] Clayton: they sub, they subconsciously, if you're not aware of them, They will subconsciously guide you. You'll be like a puppet to the, your thoughts. If you're, if you're always compulsively doing things, you're always stimulated by external things, they will direct you, and you won't even know it. They will, they will get you to do things that you'll be like, Wait, I didn't, like, why did I do that? Like, that wasn't, I didn't, that wasn't me. But they'll do, they'll do that if you're not aware of them. It's very dangerous.

[00:32:58] Andrea Emi, do you remember in, excuse me, in Ed's interview, he had said that he felt that anxiety was stemmed from this conflict of the external and the internal. Is that you're unconsciously uncomfortable with what's going on externally and it's causing the conflict internally. And he

[00:33:22] Emie: between the reality you see with, with, what you are expecting or wanting inside.

[00:33:27] Andrea Right, and so, unless you allow yourself that opportunity to connect those two and have the time to connect them, I think you're going to feel that internal anxiety and not know where it's coming from.

[00:33:43] Emie: Yeah. I love, Clayton, that you developed a visual for, um, something that is, Just conceptual and that pyramid of stimulation, you know, the other pyramid I grew up with was the food groups, you

[00:33:57] Andrea Right.

[00:33:57] Emie: and you kind of know, I want to have a little bit from this portion, a little bit from this portion, a little bit from this portion, and you kind of have a little roadmap, but you also with your pyramid diagram of stimulation can show somebody. How to participate in those different areas as well. You know, kind of like you need the bulk in this lower level. You need so much time in this level as a way to kind of live mentally. Well,

[00:34:25] Clayton: Yes. Yes, exactly. Because you can still go up to the eight or nine.

It's fine. Like, just not all the time, right? I,

I still watch, I still watch a movie with my family. Like, that's fun. I still go to the, I love going to concerts. I would go skydiving. Like, that's cool. I, I love surfing, like skiing. Those things are high, but.

[00:34:44] Andrea right? But not living all the time there.

[00:34:47] Clayton: Yeah, yeah, rest and digest. Right?

[00:34:50] Andrea Clayton, do you have other

[00:34:52] Emie: with all the social media and all those things. So it's, you have a different environment than Andrew and I did growing up.

[00:34:58] Andrea Do you have a place where our listeners could, um, go and see the pyramid or, um, see you speak and understand, um, visually what, what you're speaking about? 

[00:35:10] Clayton: The, the, the pyramid. Yeah. I'm sure I could send you a photo of what I presented

[00:35:15] Andrea Yeah. No, I think that would be great.

[00:35:16] Emie: this is all so super helpful and I think hearing it from a young person is, is compelling and just mind blowing because you're that enthusiastic and

[00:35:28] Andrea Yeah. A passion. Yeah.

[00:35:30] Emie: other thing that's unique to you is like anything else I always tell my kids, You gotta want it. And you wanted. Your curiosity was one thing, but you wanted a certain level of being for yourself. You wanted a certain level of understanding. And it also sounds like you wanted a certain level of mental health even.

And that's, that is unique. I would be curious how we can inspire other people to want that, to, to that degree.

[00:35:57] Andrea Yeah.

[00:35:58] Emie: What do you think, Andrea? Isn't that different about him?

[00:36:00] Andrea It is. It is. It's, it's that, it's that internal going back to where we started, that internal motivation to make that change rather than to just accept it and, um, and work around it. You wanted, you wanted that. Yeah.

[00:36:19] Emie: that? Where'd that come

[00:36:21] Clayton: Hmm. That is a tough question.

[00:36:27] Emie: You could say your mom.

[00:36:31] Clayton: there's, I, I remember reading this story about, you know, different spiritual people and. This one guy had three different wishes, and one, I don't remember the other two, but I remember one of them saying that like, he really wanted that that fire that gives you a ton of motivation to burn all those fumes and then you just, just directed energy just to search for something that you really want. I'm really great. I'm so grateful that I have that. But it's very difficult to, to cultivate that in someone. Um, it's, it's almost like, I don't even know where it comes from. Like,maybe it's the way my brain works. But I've always been that way and that's, that's the, you know, it's, it's always so, like, if I, you know, at one point that was like football.

All that energy was directed towards football and I would work out like all day long and I was that kind of kid, right? when I was in middle school, like, I was unnecessarily, like, obsessed with, like, doing well in school. And so it was always like, yeah. And so it was always kind of like that.

You know, it's very, like, those are goals that are reachable. If you have that sort of like fire.it's easy for me to like, have that in my mind. I'm going to meditate, you know, an hour and a half. I'm doing an hour and a half a day right now. It's very, very, very easy because I'm so motivated.

[00:37:47] Emie: Mm hmm. 

[00:37:48] Clayton: it's in some ways sort of a difficult journey.

[00:37:50] Andrea How old were you when you realized you, um, had OCD? Yeah.

[00:37:58] Clayton: so I first started experiencing symptoms. I was going to say 7th grade right when you said that, but then I was like, did I even know? Because I remember I had like these horrible, intrusive thoughts. painful. I mean, like, days are just hard. I remember, I would set, I, I, I remember like this lamp right here, I would like, have to turn it on and off like 15 times. I would have to set like 12 alarms at night. If I walked over something wrong, I would've to re-walk and walk back, like that type of a seat. Like,

like very, very serious stuff. So, and then I was like, I kept telling my mom like, I got, I, I gotta see, I think I gotta see it there 'cause I didn't know what was wrong with me.

'cause you don't,

you know, you feel very isolated

when you feel like that. Like you're, these thoughts that are really bothering you in your head. And then, and then it obviously starts with the compulsive habits, like, um, you know, different ways you brush your teeth or, you know, for me it was that, or. different ways you eat, organizing food, um, different ways you open things. For me it was a bunch of weird, obviously it's always weird stuff.

[00:38:58] Andrea Right.

[00:38:58] Clayton: so I started, you know, I noticed those types of things happening with, with me. And then I just finally saw a therapist and it was, that was really incredible.

Like when I, when someone told me like, this is normal, like you have a condition, like that solved a lot of my problems right then and there, but

You know, it's not like that and then like that. It's like, oh, yeah, I got a little bit better, got a little bit worse, got a little bit better,

and you know, I

 I would say it's, in terms of like a year, it's probably gone down.

Like if you're looking at it, like it's super far out, but day in and day out, it's like, it's, it's an up and down kind of sinusoidal type thing.

[00:39:32] Emie: you're consistently working a muscle, almost,

[00:39:35] Clayton: Like,

Oh, it's a muscle. That's brilliant. Yeah.

[00:39:37] Andrea so you still have OCD thoughts, but now you're able to manage them a little bit better and how are you doing that?

[00:39:46] Clayton: And that's, that's really through the, um, the brain lock thing with the unidentifying with the thoughts,

um, grounding, it just seems like, yeah, that, and then obviously the spiritual practice of kind of disassociating that kind of are interchangeable to me now, um, kind of, yeah, developing that distance and I guess. Yeah, I mean, they're always, I guess they're always going to be there because the way, you know, an OCD person's brain works is it's going to attach and it's going to attach to whatever you care about the most in that

moment. So they're always changing right there, like, whatever you care about the most, like, that's what they'll attach and that's what mine do at least.

Um. So you kind of have to keep your guard up, but as long as you're grounded in reality, that's what it seems like to me, like, when you're more grounded in what's going on around you, it's very easy to know that your thought world is not the real world,

but sometimes when you, you kind of live in this world where, this is the first time in history where there were things that weren't real. You know what I mean? And we talked about this a lot in one of my classes where, you know, we've created movies that look so real, you know, we're, we're all very critical. So when, when we see something, we're like, it's very easy if it's like, no, like, I don't believe that even if it is real,

like something magical, but you know, 2000 years ago, someone saw something happening in nature. There was no thing in it, nothing in their head that said to them that this isn't real. So now we live in this kind of, yeah. So we live in this kind of world where. We have to kind of doubt reality. What we see with our own eyes all the time on a daily basis. And we become. Um, numb.

I would say the word is like numb to like that kind of supernatural and like, I think it's definitely sometimes hard to know what's real and what's not.

So grabbing yourself in your own experience and becoming aware of you know, how is my, how's my body connected to the earth right now? Gravity's, gravity's pulling me down. I'm still here. Like, you know, and then,

[00:41:47] Emie: to your levels of stimulation as well in that

[00:41:49] Clayton: oh yeah, I was about to get, yeah,

[00:41:51] Emie: tool.

[00:41:53] Clayton: exactly. Exactly.

[00:41:54] Emie: to that if that was, sorry if I interrupted

[00:41:56] Clayton: No, no, no. That's perfect. That's, that's, yeah, it's, it does.

It's like, um, Yeah, I agree.

[00:42:03] Andrea I just find this so interesting. How did you, when you first started having the thoughts and you weren't putting distance between yourself and the thought, how did you know that it was, problematic for you?

[00:42:24] Clayton: it just, it caused like, I mean, obviously an incredible amount of anxiety. I don't know if, you know, they're, they're the intrusive thoughts as in, you know, there's so many different types of mine were like, uh, danger.

So bad things happening. I don't know if, you know, for some people it's different. Um, and it's, it was especially with like me, me somehow like ending up doing something really bad.

You know, and so it's really whatever. It doesn't really, they're all the same and all the OCD thoughts. They're

all clinging on the same nonsense. Um, I knew that they just kind of, they can take over your life.

And I think the first analogy that kind of comes to my mind is, you know, if you think of your thoughts like a river.

Of 

[00:43:09] Andrea Mm

[00:43:09] Clayton:  when you don't have that distance, you're kind of sitting in the water and you don't know that you can just step out and

[00:43:16] Andrea hmm. Mm hmm. 

Mm 

[00:43:18] Clayton: I mean?

So, you talked about that observer earlier,

right? Um, and so it's really just about who you are, right?

And like, getting back to this idea, like, who that question, who am I?

And so, if you think about yourself more as the observer, then, like, the thing who's thinking that the thoughts themselves. You can just walk out of the river and just be like, oh, wait, yeah, I mean, they can still bother you, but they're not going to bother you as much and slowly over time.

They, they really don't, they don't take as much of a hold over your conscious, your attention, your

attention can be, you know, there's one right there. I just had one, you know, I can see it, you know,

[00:43:55] Andrea Yeah.

[00:43:56] Emie: Yeah. What an

amazing analogy.

[00:43:58] Andrea That is a great analogy.

[00:44:01] Emie: when you went through this the early stages of identifying it and saying that this is bothering me This is getting to be a problem. Did you? Discover that all by yourself. Were you talking with the therapist at that time? Did you share with your family?

How did how did that come to be?

[00:44:18] Clayton: Yeah, um, I think it, how did I, how did I tell someone about it, right? Because I understand why you're asking, because it makes, because, you know, obviously like if someone's listening to this who's kind of experiencing the same thing, then

um, then they can, I'm a, I'm very, very open. About a lot of things. So

when there's a, when there's a, when there's a problem in my life, like I'll tell, I'll literally talk about it with anyone.I'm

 very grateful that I have that ability because I know a lot of people that's definitely a struggle. And so I would always like, I would talk about with my mom and I think at that point I was definitely. I was a little bit more closed off because I was unsure.

I was unsure whether those thoughts made me a bad person.

And I know it sounds cliche, someone with OCD, like, that makes you feel isolated because you think that there's something wrong with you because you don't know that OCD exists. And so the most important thing is just to talk. I just talked to my mom about it. I remember, When I was in seventh grade, you know, she'll come, like, say goodnight and we'll talk for a few minutes about my day and everything, and I would always kind of tell her, like, this is kind of bothering me, like, mom, like, can we, like, see a therapist, maybe, and you know, like, nothing wrong with her, but she was like, no, she didn't even really, I wasn't making it a prominent enough issue,

like, like, I think it's very important.

I eventually was just like, mom, like, yeah, like, yes, I need to see a therapist. Can you just give me an appointment? Because I, I don't feel comfortable with my own thoughts. I don't feel comfortable in my own self because these thoughts are, um,

[00:45:45] Andrea Yeah.

[00:45:46] Clayton: Like, they're just, they're really bothersome, and they're really causing a lot of misery, really.

[00:45:51] Andrea Mm.

[00:45:52] Emie: for you for being able to express that that's

[00:45:54] Clayton: It took, it took a while though, it wasn't, you know, a seventh grader going, uh, it definitely took a while, and it was a lot of, but I also do want to say, like, for anyone who's, you know, kind of going through that, is that all of, all of everything I've talked about today, everything positive that's, That, you know, it seems like, Oh, this kid's, I don't know.

I don't even know what you think, but like, Oh, he's, you know, he's has control over his life. He's doing all this stuff, whatever. I was all like, like OCD and all those struggles that I kind of went through and I'm still going through is the, that's the catalyst.

That's the reason for all of it.

Like, that's, what's made me grow. Like, if it weren't for that, then I would just kind of be floating along. Like I, I, it made me. Want to take control over my life and and and to create what I wanted, you know, and so I think if I didn't I'm very I'm actually honestly grateful for the experience,

[00:46:54] Andrea Clayton, I want to give you a big hug right now. I mean, it's just, that's the right way to look at things. Ah. 

[00:47:03] Emie: into your superpower. 

[00:47:04] Andrea Yeah.

[00:47:06] Clayton: the, yeah, it's a. And sometimes I, I even have to tell myself that when it gets harder. It's like, you know, like Clayton really have you ever done anything worthwhile if it wasn't hard,

[00:47:20] Andrea Mm.

[00:47:20] Clayton: no. I don't know.

[00:47:23] Emie: Wow.

[00:47:24] Andrea Clayton, you're going to do good things in this world. Mm hmm.

[00:47:28] Emie: Yeah, I

feel like we just sat here with our teacher, Andrea.

[00:47:31] Andrea I know. Ah. 

[00:47:34] Emie: amazing wisdom for a young person. Holy cow. I can't wait to see what you do in the days and years ahead, Clayton. This is, uh, it's a lot of wisdom and I'm so, we both appreciate that you would share that so willingly and openly.

This really beautiful gift. Thank

[00:47:54] Clayton: thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for for having me

[00:47:57] Andrea Keep sharing. Keep sharing, because you've got a lot to give.