Seren Waldman: Unfiltered- Insights From a School Therapist

Episode 11-Seren Waldman

Emie: Okay. All righty. We are thrilled to have our lovely guest today, Saren Waldman, who is a licensed professional counselor in Colorado. She's been working with families and individuals in her private practice and in a school setting for almost eight years.

For almost 10 years. She's currently working in a K through 12. I did did this every time I practice. She's currently working in a K through 12 private school through the Jewish Family Services in Colorado. In her private practice, she works with adolescents and young adults, families and parents. Her techniques come from a strength based, come from a strength based systemic approach including structural family therapy tailored to the client's developmental level.

Her goal is to create a safe environment for the therapeutic process. Saren, thanks for being [00:01:00] here with Andrea and I. We really are

Seren: Thanks for having, thanks for having me.

Emie: Yeah.

Andrea: Thank you, Saren.

Seren: Yeah,

Andrea: K through 12. That is a big delta in ages there. What are some of the, I would imagine though you see some common themes throughout the, uh, of mental health struggles. Um, what are some of the common things that you're seeing and that you're treating kids on a day to day basis for at the school?

Seren: I would say anxiety is probably the top of the list. Anxiety or depression. Um, ADHD, but ADHD often comes with either anxiety or depression or both. Sometimes it's, there's a major comorbidity there. Um, a lot of emotional regulation. I would say that Right after COVID, we were, I was seeing a lot of struggles with social skills, even like [00:02:00] with like middle school students, um, who just had been online for a long time and just not even necessarily online because at my school, we were, we were actually in person that whole year.

Like we closed in March of 2020, but then that September, but that August, we came back full time. I mean, we, I think we had to close maybe once or twice, but you know, we were in person, um, but kids were, kids were very isolated. Even with us being like, you know, they couldn't, they had to sit a certain, you know, distance apart.

And we did have some kids whose parents pulled them out during COVID and then have since come back. Um, and those are the ones who have had the most problems with social skills.

Emie: Is it a certain age range that you see that more commonly with?

Seren: um, like the middle school age and like early high school, I would say, [00:03:00] because, you know, we have like, I have a sixth grader. who's really struggling. She's been back for about a year. Um, and so she, but she missed all of, she missed all part of second grade, all of third and all of fourth grade in person because her parents were very hesitant to send her back.

And so those are really formative years, you know. Yeah, and I haven't seen this as much at our school again, because we are like, we've been in person, but like the kids who are like freshmen in high school this year, a lot of them really struggled towards the end of middle school. My cousin's son is a freshman in high school.

And when he started back in seventh grade, he was really, he and a lot of his peers were really struggling and she couldn't figure out kind of what was going on. And I was like. He, he literally, the last time he was in person was in fifth grade. He missed an [00:04:00] entire year of social development just because he had to be online for the most part.

So like, these teachers have this incoming class of seventh graders expecting them to act as seventh graders, but really what they were getting was a class of fifth graders. Like from a, so from an emotional perspective, and I think, I think a lot of teachers had a really hard time that year, um, after everyone kind of came back, but so, so back to your question, though, I would say anxiety and depression are probably the biggest things, um, social anxiety, emotional regulation, um, those are probably the big, the biggest things that I'm, that I see, and ADHD.

Andrea: As kids are transitioning from high school, graduating, and moving on, I would imagine that that's a pretty delicate time in your relationship. How are you preparing those kids to continue that [00:05:00] self care and to, you know, to move past especially if they've only been getting it through the school?

Seren: Yeah, we really talk a lot about that as they're, as the school year is coming to an end. So at the school I'm at, Not all of our seniors do this, but it is the norm that they will go to Israel and do a gap year and they'll study in Israel for a year. Um, but we do talk a lot about like, yeah, so what are the supports at the place you're going to be at in Israel?

Like how can you, like, We would do a lot of reviewing of like the coping skills that we've talked about and what are the things, how can you help yourself if you are going downhill? What do you notice about yourself when your anxiety is starting to ramp up? What are you noticing inside of you to help you?

Get yourself help before it gets to a really critical point where you're really struggling. Um, but I think that's it. I, I would, I think [00:06:00] that's an issue across the board. I don't think, I don't think our teenagers are going off, whether, whether they're going to college or whatever they're doing, they leave high school and I don't think they're prepared enough in a lot of ways to go out into the world.

Andrea: Right.

Emie: Yeah. That is, you bring up a really good point, actually. Yeah. I don't think we've ever talked about this before, but that is, um, a big transition in and of itself, kid leaving high school and all the systems they have in place, including counseling and, and other support systems. But for the parents to feel like their kid is going to be okay.

Are they going to be able to advocate for themselves if they need help? Are they going to be able to find someone that was really scary, you know, and you're talking earlier about the involvement of the parent with you, the therapist

Seren: Okay, I was like, I'm pretty sure that that is an actual phrase now.

Emie: Yeah, that was a real freeze.

Seren: Okay. You were saying that's scary as a parent,

Emie: It is scary at the parent because you're not, you're not [00:07:00] sure, well you're already unsure of so many things, the kid launching, are they going to be okay out in the world independent of me and our family environment, but if they have any kind of mental health struggle, um, certainly let's just even say anxiety, I remember that being really scary.

Like is my, is my child going to know how to find some help? Are they going to be able to advocate for themselves because. As the parent of somebody who went through therapy and I could interact with the therapist, I felt really comfortable if I had my five minutes in the beginning or end to kind of get a summary or give a summary.

And now, yeah, transitioning them off, you're like, Oh my gosh, you know, I hope. I hope I worked myself out of a job. I hope their therapist worked themselves out of a job and they're going to be okay. But yeah, it's

Andrea: The reason I brought it up was because my son, who's almost 21, we didn't know when he went off to university that [00:08:00] they had any of these resources in place. We figured, okay, he's done with a 504 and we, you know, luckily he had a strong relationship with his psychologist. So he's taking that. But then my daughter went to a charter school and the charter school came to us.

At the end of the year and said, okay, you know, the state of California has Department of Rehabilitation that we're going to set you up with and the college has this, that, and the other. And they handed us, you know, this, this packet basically of information and, you know, to get her transitioned, which I didn't realize was available to all students and at all universities.

So I, you know.

Emie: the transitioning packet or the services.

Andrea: The services, the, and I say packet, it really wasn't a packet. It was like a whole system. I mean, it was like, they were holding our hands to get us there. But, you know, I just didn't realize that there were those type of services in, in the, um, you know, college age level as [00:09:00] much as they, they have

Emie: Mm hmm.

Seren: yeah, and I think then that's, that's on your son's school and shame on them for not letting you know that, right? Because like, if a kid has a 504 and has an accommodation plan in high school. Then they can have those same accommodations in college. If you have extended time for tests in high school with the, with the correct documentation, I mean, you have to seek it out, right?

Like you have, and, but like, I want to go back just for a second. I mean, like what you were saying about like hoping that your kid, like,

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: The one thing that I struggle with in our like society is just that this mentality of, okay, they're 18, they graduated college, they're adults now, like, let, they can just figure it all out.

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: An 18 year old boy has a good decade left of brain development.

Emie: yeah.

Seren: when they leave high school and go to college, yes, they are on their own.

Yes, they are like legally an adult, [00:10:00] but they are still kids and they still really need adult help. Not in the same way that they did when they were 10.

Emie: Mm

Seren: like you still, I think our job as parents, I mean, look, my kids are younger than yours, but like, I mean, I rely on my mom for a lot of things all the time.

I'm 42. Like our job as parents are never is never over. And I just think that we've built a society where like, people like just are like, okay, well, they've they're out of the house. Like, yes, I'm still the parent, but like, they can figure it out. And I think that's setting kids up for For failure. And then on the same hand or like on same token, like we also need to help these kids in now are so afraid of failure because parents are jumping in at the drop of a hat to, to save them that when they get to college, that's when they're really struggling because they have no idea what the fuck is going on because their parents aren't there to call their [00:11:00] professor And like convince them to give them more time on a paper or whatever.

Like it's a very like interesting extreme.

Emie: hmm. Yeah.

Seren: know if that makes sense. What I was just

Andrea: it makes,

Emie: you hit a really valid point about that fear of failure and, and us rescuing our kids too often.

Seren: It's impossible not to, I mean, as a parent, it's so hard not to want to protect your kid and to let them fail. But the best thing we can do as parents or as therapists or as, you know, people who work in a school or people who work with kids is to let them fail and let them be, learn how to be okay with it.

Emie: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Seren: that's where so much. I don't know. I think, like, I think it's been, like, a gradual, like, increase over decades, probably. Like, I was actually just reading an article today, um, a New York Times article about, like, the best way to [00:12:00] help kids with their, their anxiety and their mental health struggles is, like, To kind of lean into it, like, to encourage them to fail, like, to help them understand, like, you want to do really, like, the article, like, gave an example of, like, this kid who, like, couldn't sleep in their, in his own room by himself, so, so, instead of the therapist using like a CBT model.

He was like, what kind of amazing things do you wish you could do? Like, what, what do you want to do with your life? And like, what, what do you wish you could do? And like, let's say it's like walk the dog by myself. So then the, the therapist is like working with the parents to let the kid walk the dog by himself.

Right. And get right. But like there, I think. Partly where we got here is that parents are so scared. We are so scared to let, because there's so much scary stuff in the world and there is, but like when we were all kids, the [00:13:00] scariest stuff was still there. We just didn't hear about it as often. Right. And so the more we hear because the constant news cycle and Internet and phones and everything.

I think parents are so terrified that something bad is going to happen to their kid that they just don't let their kids do anything at all. And so then we have these kids who have so much anxiety because their parents have never let them walk to their friend's house by themselves.

Emie: Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

Seren: Yeah.

Emie: is crazy. I think that it's that it's definitely that fear that something bad will happen and parallel to that, we just can't bear our kids suffering at all. It's it's horrible. Whereas the generation ahead of us, I don't think that they were that pain, you know, our hardships.

And Oh, speaking of hardships, remember Andrea is telling you about this article that I've been holding on to for. Over a decade

Andrea: Mm hmm.

Emie: about, um, [00:14:00] kind of what Saren was saying about letting your kid experience discomfort and maybe some hardship and suffering. And it was such an impactful talk because I, I, at the time, my oldest child was 6.

And it was, you know, everything in our house was padded and, you know, I probably wasn't letting her ride her bike three blocks away. Shame on me. But he said, if your child does not have any hardship, then it is your job as a parent to artificially inject hardship. Make something up. And he gave some really concrete examples, but I did learn that early on that that was really important.

And my kids did run into some organic hardships, so I didn't have to make stuff up.

Andrea: Well, you know, the thing that I was just thinking about is that failure could also be a failure in perception. I think, I think our world these days is all about how does everything look? How can I make my [00:15:00] three year old's birthday party the best birthday party? How can I have the sign my, you know, sophomore son is going to have the best sign to ask his girlfriend to homecoming,

Emie: Yeah, that's true.

Seren: So I can post it on Instagram and everyone thinks I have this perfect life.

Emie: Right.

Andrea: And then that sets them up for when they don't, when they don't have that, what happens or what happens when his girl that he asks to the homecoming. Is now put on the spot with all these cameras and everything she doesn't want to say no. I mean, she wants to say no, but she doesn't want to say no to him because she knows she's gonna humiliate him.

So then she's like, well, I guess I have to say yes, but I mean, it's just all of this perception is. It's got to be taking its toll on, on how kids are reacting to everyday situations where, you know, we, you know, somebody asked us to homecoming, we said, no, it was like maybe us and six other [00:16:00] people that really knew that, you know,

Emie: Mm hmm.

Andrea: to happen.

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: a good point.

Emie: There's so much exposure. We are exposed to so much information. The kids are, yeah, definitely. Exposing themselves in different ways out

Seren: Well, we're, we're inundated with

Emie: yeah, yeah,

Andrea: And that, I don't, the question is, is how, how is that trajectory going to change? I don't, I don't see it changing. I don't.

Seren: I actually think it is because so I what I'm kind of seeing and hearing and is that so when like social media and cell phones and all this stuff really came out, right, like Us as the adults, like we were so into it. Right. So like, and we didn't know what the negative impacts were going to be on anyone.

Right. So like, you know, obviously I didn't have kids at that point, but like, so [00:17:00] I think parents just had, had, didn't know any better. So they just had no boundaries. For the most part with it. Right. So we have this generation of kids who just like were just had all at their fingertips all the time. But then, so we were at this like major, like one end of the extreme, but I kind of see it kind of swinging back towards the middle because now we know we have the information and even teens themselves are taking themselves off of.

Social media because teens themselves are under recognizing like I'll look up for my phone and realize I've spent two hours scrolling and I don't feel good about it. Right and so I think that I think that we're like the pendulum is kind of going to swing back and hopefully we don't go back to this other extreme or like.

It's like banned and like, you know, shame on you for letting your for having any social media or whatever, but kind of come to middle. So I think that look, it's not going anywhere. [00:18:00] Our kids have don't don't know a world without any of this.

Emie: Right.

Seren: Right? So I think that as we all learn more, I think that the pendulum will continue to swing back to like a more of a middle ground because We've learned from like the past mistakes.

That's

Andrea: You

Emie: that means, Andrea, your kids and my kids were like the beta test

Andrea: I know we've talked about that, remember? We've talked about that Emmy,

Emie: I feel horrible.

Andrea: but, you know, I, I think Saren, you bring up a good point is that the question I think as parents, we can be even asking ourselves and asking our kids is how do I feel when I get done scrolling through Facebook? Instagram, Snapchat, whatever.

What, what is that gut feeling? And then, um, and at least that's a, you know, a point to, to at least start the discussion with.[00:19:00] 

Seren: And you know, we all know like kids like they might fight it at the end of the day, kids want to have boundaries. Like they thrive when they have boundaries and parameters set. And so I would say for parents who are like, whose kids are maybe in between our kids ages, right. Who are not like late middle school in the high school, having that conversation with them awake.

You know, we want you to, we, we recognize that like, this is the norm and all your friends have social media or whatever, but like, we also want you to have like a healthy balance. So like maybe working with, with the teen to come up with that as of age appropriate, is that appropriate to, for a 13 year old?

No, I don't think so. A 13 year old still needs a lot of boundaries. So like, you set those boundaries as the parent. That's our job.

Emie: Mm hmm.

Seren: And that can change as you get older. Um, but I think we have to teach our [00:20:00] kids how to moderate that. But it also starts with us modeling that behavior. And it's hard, right?

Because I think adults are the ones who are almost more addicted. Like, there's so much talk about teens and how addicted they are to their phones. And they are. I see it. I mean, You walk through our building at lunchtime, and the majority of the kids are doing this. Right, but or sometimes you're even texting each other.

They're like three feet away from one another and they're fucking texting each other I'm like the way like talk look at each other or talk to one another But we all do it we all do it and so some of it is like our own like It's on us to also model that be like putting our phones down and being more

Emie: true. Can I ask, do you have a plan for what age your kids will have a phone or what age they'll be able to use social media?

Seren: I mean eighth grade at the earliest If [00:21:00] it gets to the point where for whatever reason, like they need to have a phone to contact, like they need to have a way to contact us, to contact us, then we'll get, we'll cross that bridge. But like, you can also get phones that you literally can only call and text. I am fine with that. Like it's, it is a hard balance because you don't want your kid to be so. Um, but you also don't want your kids, why do we want, why do we want our kids to be exposed to all of this stuff? Like, after everything, after what happened in Israel a few weeks ago,

Andrea: Right.

Seren: there was a lot of talk and Hamas was saying that they were going to, you know, they were going to, And then in the summer, I had a lot of people release videos like of graphic nature and stuff.

The head of school at my school, [00:22:00] and I think a lot of schools, Jewish day schools, did this. They, she sent out an email to parents recommending that they take all social media off of their kids phones. Because

Emie: hmm,

Seren: once you see those images, and once you read those stories, like. You can't unsee it and it's traumatizing to us as adults, but 13 and 14 year olds, even 17, 18 year old, like the older kids, it's a little different, but like they don't, they, those kids don't need to be exposed to that level of violence at this stage.

Hold on. I lost a headphone. Um, but it just always, it's insane. Like, why do we want our kids? Our kids don't, they're not every once in a while, I'll let them watch this one YouTuber who they like, but like they don't get YouTube is not on their iPads. I've watched it on the computer. Like they, they have very little access to that.

And I [00:23:00] will keep it like that as long as we possibly can.

Emie: Yeah, I wish I could go back and do it differently to be honest

Seren: How would you have done it differently?

Emie: I think I would have had stricter rules. I mean my kids were, um, middle school when snapchat just was a thing. So I didn't know what it was. I, you know, so when they're saying, can I snapchat my friend? And it just seemed like a thing where you make silly faces together.

Um, same with Instagram. I didn't know. We didn't know what Instagram was when they were all. Starting to, you know, post pictures. So they were, they were very much like the beta test group. And I think I would have, I absolutely would have squashed that. But by the time my youngest came around, I knew better.

So I said, no, you're not doing this till later. But

Andrea: Well, interesting. My, uh, my daughter, when she was in seventh grade, her class, she was at a private school and her class, the teacher started an Instagram page for the class and the kids [00:24:00] had to be on it.

Emie: Yeah. Oh,

Andrea: I was like, Oh, you know, and yeah. Yeah. Now, that was, what, five, six years ago, so it was a long time ago.

But again, you're like, now I look back and I think that, that's, you know, started something. I didn't really necessarily want her on Instagram, but once she was there, it's like, you know, and I followed her and, you know, all that stuff, but still, it's like.

Emie: Mm hmm.

Andrea: a trend that you don't need.

Seren: Totally. Well, and you know, we are all informed. We. We all like to think, I'm sure, like, that we are informed and stuff like that, but, like, there's a lot of parents who don't pay, who aren't, and they don't pay attention, and I think that's, that's the hard part, right?

Emie: Mm hmm.

Seren: you know, we all have our best intentions.

Look, who, who knows what they're doing. Social media is going to look like five years from now. I mean,

Andrea: It's already changed so much

Seren: it's already changed so much. And like, [00:25:00] it could be a whole thing that we can't even imagine. Like, it'd be interesting to come back and have this conversation five years from now and like, see like what has changed and what hasn't changed.

And, you know, I think that a lot of parents, parents are busy and we're all busy and it's, and I'm, I'm not always as good as I probably need to be about way. Like looking at what my kids are looking at and watching and like monitoring. But there are parents who are completely

Andrea: on

Seren: don't pay any attention to it.

Andrea: think sometimes we do get all caught up in that because I mean, back when I was a kid, my parents didn't really know what was happening at all in my life. And because that's just the way it was. Now I was, I didn't have the ability to be exposed to as much because there was not, you know, we only had what five channels or whatever, but yet I still had the freedom.

To get myself involved in [00:26:00] situations that weren't healthy for me, but and not that I did. I was a really good kid. Just sidebar. Um, just in case my mom's listening to this. Um, but I still, I still had that opportunity to. And so I think kids will be kids will be kids. Kids are going to be exposed to things that they're going to have to learn to deal with. And I mean, that's where your morals come in, right? That's where you kind of learn and develop some of those.

Okay. What, what, okay. Should I be doing this? Oh, no, I shouldn't, but I'm going to try it for a little bit. You know, I, so I think there's some developmental things that go along with that, um, and risks

Seren: yeah, I couldn't, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, and I think that goes back to like what we were talking about earlier, just like how we've bubble wrapped our kids and they're not like, there's just like a balance of like what your kids are exposed to and what, like from a developmental standpoint and like, You know, 13 year olds don't need to be looking at porn, but they can see porn because everything is at their is everything is at their [00:27:00] fingertips.

Right. And I think that's where that's where parents or and just adults in general, like that's where we're not paying enough attention of like, well, if your kids in their room with the door shut and their iPad, who knows what the hell they're looking at.

Emie: Yeah.

Andrea: Right.

Seren: and so that kind of, and listen, yeah, I had a friend when I was in elementary school whose stepdad had playboys and we thought it was hilarious to like, look at them.

So like, yeah, you're always going to get yourself into trouble and

Emie: Maybe your mom is listening.

Seren: sure she knows about that. I mean, you know my mom.

Emie: I know.

Seren: she knows pretty much, she knows most of the things.

Andrea: So can I tell you, I'm going to, I don't even know why I probably shouldn't be sharing this cause we may need to cut this out, but I'm going to. So a few years ago I was talking to my cousin and we were talking about porn and how easily it is available to boys on the

Emie: Yeah.

Andrea: and. The kind of stuff that they can see, and it's [00:28:00] just so awful.

And so she and I actually came up with business idea to come out with a mom approved porn site so that it shows

Emie: Oh, my gosh.

Andrea: know, but it

Emie: the hell is this? This was not in the outline.

Seren: Oh my god, no, but I need to hear more.

Emie: Oh,

Andrea: but it would be a place that would, like, not show, like, the, like, the stuff that was unhealthy. It would be, like, natural sweet sex that was, you know, like, it was like, it was to be there to protect the boys. And then I think it was her husband that said, you know, that's still probably illegal. So we never went through with it, but, but I was like, yeah, we should have this mom approved porn site.

So,

Seren: That is so funny. Oh

Andrea: Yeah. Entrepreneurial spirit at heart.

Emie: my gosh.[00:29:00] 

Andrea: You learn something new every day, guys.

Emie: Wow,

Seren: I would love to see your son's face when you told, if, if you ever tell him that you had that idea at one point.

Andrea: I don't know. Okay. Now

Emie: He's like, Mom, that just ruins it right there. My mom has seen all this first. Yeah, I know.

Seren: Oh, yeah. Kids don't want to think about that.

Andrea: yeah, no, well, yeah. That brings up a good point, but I thought it was a good idea because I thought it would be healthy. You know, like it would be a healthy place that they could go that wouldn't be so

Emie: Is that kind of like bubble wrapping the porn?

Seren: Well, yes and no, like, because, like, when kids, when boys look at porn, it's super, like, it's really detrimental to their development because it gives them this, like, false idea of what sex is like and what women's bodies are like and, and what men's bodies are like and should be like. And it's, there's a lot of [00:30:00] research of that, like, if they watch too much of it, it can really impact them down the road when they are then becoming sexual and

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: What they then expect and like, like what they experienced versus like what they've seen and think things are like,

Andrea: Okay. And just so you guys both know, this was, this was altruistic in my standpoint, because that's exactly why I was saying we needed to have, because I was like,

Seren: I can see that.

Andrea: I wanted to have a place that set expectations.

Emie: You wanted to show the kids what kind of sex they should be having. Oh my gosh.

Andrea: to a whole different level.

Seren: Oh my God. That is really

Emie: Oh my gosh.

Andrea: don't know how we got here, you guys. I'm so sorry.

Emie: So like, can we talk about anxiety? The anxiety that's creeping up in my soul right now thinking about my boys watching porn. Oh my gosh.

Seren: Yeah. [00:31:00] I think that as a parent, you just, I mean, again, my kids are younger. I think that you just like, don't let yourself go to that like

Emie: Yeah. You get, you get all the knowledge, Saren, you're, you're younger parent generation and, and see all the mistakes that we made.

Seren: Yeah. But then we're making mistakes with like. The next thing that the next ones won't make, like this, this is something I tell parents all the time. And I'm going to say this verbatim. We all fuck up our kids. It is inevitable. We are humans. We are going to make mistakes. There's no way that we don't fuck up our kids in some way.

My job therapists, that whole, the whole crew, like the whole job, like it wouldn't exist if we didn't fuck up our kids. Like, it's just

Emie: you need us. You need

Seren: Right! You need us as therapists! Right! Well, like, but like, yeah! Like, [00:32:00] I'm probably gonna mess I know I'm messing up my kids in a different way than my parents messed me up, and that's okay, because it it just is.

Like, yeah, I yell at my kids, but I yell at my kids. I try not to. I yell at

Andrea: you do.

Seren: I'm a person. Sometimes they just get me to that point. I just get to that point.

Andrea: Right. We,

Emie: you.

Andrea: yes. Thank you for validating loud voices.

Seren: It doesn't feel good to yell at your kids, but like we all do it. And I just think that like, I think so many parents are so afraid that like, if they yell at their kids, like, or that because they yell at their kids, they're messing their kids up. I'm like, well,

Emie: Mm hmm.

Seren: honestly, what you think you're messing, you're probably messing them up in a way you don't even realize

Andrea: Right. Well, and it, well, and it's, it's, it's, again, we go back to perception. No matter, you know, it's how they perceive something, how you perceive [00:33:00] something, and that gap there that creates a lot of the issues, right? I always said that, you know what, I will feel like I have been a successful parent if my kids problems are not the problems that I had.

If, if I corrected, if I was able to

Emie: It's nice.

Andrea: change and make the improvement to where I was messed up, they're still going to have problems. They are. I mean, you know, it is, that's why we have therapy, the therapy fund, right? It's just, it's just there. But, um, as long as they don't repeat the problems that I have, then I guess I'm successful. And

Seren: I like that perspective.

Andrea: Thank you.

Seren: And if your son what?

Emie: I know it's like

Andrea: you don't want to go there.

Emie: Sarah like, uh

Andrea: was hoping that we could just, like, cut, I was like, I'm not going back there.

Seren: That's funny.

Andrea: Yeah.

Emie: Yeah, that is important for parents to hear though that some of these things that kids will grow up and have issues [00:34:00] with later or I don't know struggle with anything that's attributable to the parents Is that the right word? Attributable? Sounded weird

Seren: Attributed.

Emie: Attributed to the parents? Yeah.

Um, it is based on the kid's perception too, right? And where they are in the moment and how you interpret things and yeah, that's a whole other podcast.

Seren: I also think that if you worry that you're not doing a good job of as a parent or you're worried that you're not a good parent, then that in itself tells me that you are a good parent because

Emie: Aw.

Seren: that means that you are. self reflecting and you are thinking about your job as the parent. If you think you're just, you're just crushing it.

You're there's, you are a perfect parent. Then that is an issue because then you're not reflecting on your own stuff. But like if you're worried that you're not doing a good job as a parent, then just the fact that you're worried about that tells me that like you're doing an okay job.

Emie: Oh,

Andrea: I worry [00:35:00] so much. I must be an excellent parent then.

Emie: From the words of a therapist.

Seren: We don't worry. Yeah.

Andrea: Emmy had a good, a good question earlier that I want to make sure that we don't forget to ask. has being a therapist shaped you as being a parent and how you manage your kids?

Seren: That's a really good question.

Andrea: I know, that's why I didn't want to forget it. And I wanted to give Emmy the, uh, kudos for that one. Because, yeah,

Seren: so to be fair, I'm also the child of a therapist. So I have a lot, yeah, um,

Emie: hmm.

Seren: I think, I think it depends on the day, honestly. There have been times where I, like there's things coming out of my mouth and as I'm saying them, I'm like, I have actively told parents not to say this to their kids and yet [00:36:00] it is still coming out of my mouth. Um, I think it has given me a better, um, ability to empathize with my kids and to give them some space. I think I am, I'm an inherently a pretty patient person. So I. I think it being a therapist has given me, it just helped me know and have the tools to help them in those really hard moments or to not like totally lose my shit.

You know, like when they're not listening, I still do that sometimes, but you know, I, I, I, it has given me the ability to regulate my Self in order to help them regulate themselves, right? Because if we're all dysregulated, then, then everyone's yelling and every, and nothing's being productive. But I think being a therapist has definitely helped me in just when they're having those really hard [00:37:00] moments.

Um, also just understanding developmentally where kids are at has, has been like just having that kind of knowledge. And, um, yeah, I, I, I think that's the biggest thing is just like, Help give, knowing how to help them calm down when they're feeling upset and knowing how, like that there are certain things that just no matter what are not going to work.

And it's not because it's not gonna work with that my, that one kid of mine. It's because it just is not gonna work in general. Right? Like if you're trying to reason with a kid, with someone who's in the middle of having a tantrum or who's really, really upset, you know, if you know that. Because they're working from this part of their brain, not this part of their brain, right?

They're not, they can't access their prefrontal cortex right here. Like, and this is where your, our reason belongs. If they're, right, the front of your brain. So if you're, when you're upset and you're in fight or [00:38:00] flight, It's that most basic part of your brain that's activated and when that part of your brain is activated nothing else in your brain works right because so if we have a kid, if you're trying to negotiate with a toddler or a six year old who's having a massive meltdown, they can't.

Here it. They're not, their brain is not working in a way that allows them to hear whatever you're trying to reason with. So your best bet, and I try to do this as much as I can, but your best bet as a parent is to like help them calm down and then you can have that conversation, right? Then you can help them understand.

But when they're having it, or even if you're a spouse, when you're, when you're, When you and your spouse are yelling at each other, you can't reason with one another because your brains can't access that part of your brain where you, where you use reason. So I think those are the things that, those are the things that have helped me I think the most as a parent.

Emie: Well, that's no fair because you have more tools in your tool belt. [00:39:00] What are, what are some other examples of tools that you would use to calm your child? Or, you know, if they're in, let's just say, cause so many people have kids that are very anxious. I think anxiety, as you even said, it's like so wildly common.

So what are, what are a couple of tools that you could share with other people that wouldn't be helpful for those

Seren: So. Yeah, so I am one of the ways I, I really, um, like to practice is from like an experiential perspective. And so when a kid is feeling anxious, I like to help them or not necessarily in that moment, but like. You know, as a, if you're a, if you're a parent, you have a kid who has a lot of anxiety. A good thing to ask them is like, when you're anxious, where do you feel it in your body?

Do you feel it in your stomach? Do you feel it in your chest? What are the signs? Because our bodies give us signals that we are starting to get anxious, for [00:40:00] example, before we maybe really recognize that, right? So if you're starting, if you notice that your heart is starting to be faster when you're starting to get anxious, Okay, so what are some things that we can do?

We can take deep breaths. We can move our bodies. You know, those are, so I would say, I would have a parent talk to their kid. about what is the, what are they physically feeling when they're feeling anxious? Um, and then what are the tools, taking deep breaths, taking a break, you know, going to a different room, getting a drink of water, counting to 10.

Um, if you have a kid who is having like, they're just in a major panic attack, um, a really good grounding exercise is. You can do it a few different ways, but you can say, okay, tell me five things that you can see in this room. Okay. I can see the pens on the desk. I can see the computer. I can see the light, you know, whatever.

What are five things that you can [00:41:00] hear? What are five things that you can feel? I can feel my sweater on my body. I can feel my, Legs, my feet on the floor and just kind of bringing them back into the present moment can help diffuse some of that, that anxiety. Um, and I would tell parents to never like say, Oh, you're fine.

Like, Oh, like that's, you're being silly. There's no reason to be worried about that. Like that's, that's never gonna happen. Cause to that, to your kid, that is a real thing. Like they are really, really worried about that. Um, but trying to reason with them in that moment is not going to work. So you gotta kind of get them to a point where they, and sometimes you don't have that conversation even till the next day.

I, I like to tell parents. Car rides are the best time to get to talk to your kids because they are literally trapped. You are in a moving vehicle and you cannot get out. [00:42:00] So that is the best time you have a captive audience to have those conversations. Like if you guys got in a fight the night before, once everyone's all, everyone's settled down and cooled off, that a car is a great time to have a conversation

Emie: I agree. And I actually heard, I heard the car is a great place for those conversations because you're side by side and not making eye contact

Seren: Yep.

Andrea: that too.

Emie: and they kind of like that better. Is that right?

Seren: Yeah.

Emie: It's more comfortable.

Andrea: That's not confrontational

Emie: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Seren: Yeah, yeah. Um, and with anxiety too. I mean, anxiety can be really tricky and it can pop up at really, you know, what seems to us is like the drop of a hat or like you all of a sudden your kid is having a panic attack. And honestly, like, I think that if, for, if you're, if you're, if your child is really [00:43:00] having a lot of anxiety struggles and you need to get, uh, In order to get them into a therapist who can help you with that, because I think parents oftentimes try to, they try with best intentions to help their kids out, and they don't have, I can talk about all the tools right now, but until you can really figure out what is going on, What is triggering that anxiety, you know, all those tools are only going to do so much to help to help really with that anxiety, because sometimes you have to dig a little deeper to figure it out to figure out what's going on and let your kids.

You know, I'll send you the, the link to the, to the article is a New York Times article that my sister had sent me that I was talking about earlier. A lot of this anxiety is because we have so, parents are so overprotective of their kids. They don't let their kids, we don't let kids do like what we used to do.

I don't know about you guys, but when I was a kid in the [00:44:00] summertime, We would come home from swim team in the morning and we would get on our bikes and we would go and we would maybe come home at lunchtime or maybe not. And then we would come home at dinnertime and we would've had a full day. And like our parents didn't know where we were and that was okay.

And now we don't let our kids do that for a whole host of reasons. But you know, the, the article that I read really was talking about like. Yeah, letting your kids do those things. Let your kids go run an errand for you. Like give your kids that that a little bit more freedom and some of that anxiety might go away.

Emie: Mm hmm. Yeah. I've read a lot about that too. I think there's a lot of validity there. No doubt.

Seren: um, yeah,

Emie: you think anxiety stems or starts as a thought, really thought processes?

Seren: I mean I think it's sometimes it's triggered by an event and sometimes it does and sometimes Apples and trees. Some, I've had [00:45:00] a lot of kids come in, parents bring their kids in with a lot of anxiety. And then after you kind of talk with the parents, you're like, okay, well, now I'm getting where your kid is getting their anxiety because you are a ball of anxiety.

And so sometimes, sometimes it's not even the kid necessarily. It's, it's not that the kids don't have anxiety, but it's, A learned behavior almost where or they're like hearing these things from their parents, you know, where the parent has a lot of anxiety and so that the kids then kind of absorb all that anxiety to

Emie: Mm hmm.

Andrea: Is it ever an issue with just chemicals where there is no triggering effect? Okay.

Seren: that I was just about to say that sometimes it is just a chemical like there is just brain chemistry.

Andrea: Yeah. Cause my, my daughter will sometimes be very, very anxious. And in the beginning I used to say, well, you know, why are you feeling this way or whatever? And, and she would, and she, we got to the point where she would be like, you know, mom, it makes no sense. I don't know [00:46:00] why I'm anxious. There is no reason for me to be anxious.

Seren: yeah.

Andrea: um,

Seren: And in those cases, so did you get her on meds?

Andrea: medication. I won't get into the whole deal with her, but she, yeah, she has a lot of issues with the medication. So it's been, um, a lot, a lot of hard work on her part to,

Seren: wasn't saying I can imagine. And then a lot of hard work to like build that skill set and those tools in her toolbox to deal with that anxiety.

Andrea: absolutely. Yeah.

Seren: Yeah. And I'm guessing that, I mean, she's what, she's probably like in sophomore college now,

Andrea: Freshman.

Seren: freshman college. Um, right. So like she's aware enough of like what's going on in her body that she can tell when she's starting to get anxious and she can use those tools and parents.

I am, I am never one to like push meds ever. Hey, I'm not a psychiatrist, but be like, you know, we over Medicaid as a general overall, I think our society [00:47:00] is quite overmedicated, but sometimes Andrea, to your point, it is really, it really is just brain chemistry

Andrea: Yeah, and I was just going to say, on the whole medication thing, she's been on 15 different medications. Um, we just can't find one that's going to work for her, and it's tough. But, but, getting to know your body. And the signs has been, I mean, she is so in tune with her body. So but you know, it's interesting because, and now I'm getting off on a personal thing and I don't like to do this, but I'm going to bring it up anyways because I think it brings, because I think it brings up a good point, um, is that she wasn't diagnosed with anxiety until she was eight or nine.

And I look back now, she was doing self soothing measures well before then when she was at a party, you know, that we were at a party all of a sudden. And she would. We couldn't find her and she would be hiding behind the couch because it was too overstimulating and she was being, you know, she was, she was trying to [00:48:00] protect herself or what, you know, that's just one example of, of things that she used to do.

She always used to pull herself away. And I look back now and I say, huh, she was recognizing that she was uncomfortable. And I would wonder if. If we could all look back on our kids to start seeing, okay, what kind of things are they doing to help, you know, for self preservation?

Emie: hmm.

Seren: Yeah. That's such a good point. I'm going to now that now, I'm going to be thinking about that with my own kids. Like, what do they do? What, what do I not see? My daughter's a thumb sucker and, and my pediatrician, I mean, this was a lot like, I mean, she was probably two or three. He was like, listen, like if that's her coping mechanism at this point, like why, what, why take that away?

Andrea: I agree. I agree.

Seren: And I was like, God, you're so right. Like she's not going to go to college sucking her thumb. And if she is, well, then oh, well, but like, you know, we'll deal with that then. But like, [00:49:00] she might of my two, she is way better at re regulating herself and always has been. Whereas my son never took a pacifier.

Never sucked his thumb and has always really had a hard time with re regulating himself. Um, it's really, yeah, it is very interesting. And so, yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I don't think we look at that because there's also the social norm, right? Of like, Oh my God, like my daughter's being so rude. Like she's hiding behind a couch.

She's at this party. Like what is going on with her? You know? And we don't, we're not taking that step back and be like, Oh, like why is that?

Andrea: Right. She needs to do

Seren: It's really.

Andrea: Yeah. You know, the whole sucking the thumb and the pacifier thing, both my, my daughter sucked her fingers. My son sucked his thumb, but I remember that that was like a big deal. Oh, well, when are you going to take? And I was like, well, gosh, I don't know. He, I, I was the same as you like, well, he's not going to go to college sucking his thumb at least.

And if he does, well, that's weird. I guess I messed up. But, um, but it was, I mean, that [00:50:00] was, that was a way for them to calm themselves Down. And it's why, why take it away. You know, whether they carry their blankie, you know, for, for years to come, it just, it doesn't matter.

Seren: Yeah. And as she's gone, she, yeah, she, well, she has a little hippo. So she has this little lovey that's hippo. I mean, we've almost lost 10 million times and she really only sucks her thumb when she has the hippo ever. And so like, you know, when she went to kindergarten, like HIPAA was not allowed to go to school with her anymore.

You know, and that was a whole big transition and like they had pajama day yesterday and my son, like they were allowed, you know, all the kids were allowed to take like a small lobby, like to school with them. And she was like, guess who I'm going to take? And they were talking about it. And Levi was like, Oh, are you taking hippo?

And she was like, no, because then it would suck my thumb.

Andrea: Oh, see, and she's aware.

Emie: she knows.

Seren: a hundred percent aware. Yeah. She knows. Yeah. So we're just trying, [00:51:00] we're getting her, we're trying to get her to the point where like, it's not like a boredom thing. It's like, You know, if you need to suck your thumb, go do it in your room.

You can have hippo, you can suck your thumb there. You don't need to be sucking your thumb in the car because you're bored. So like, you know, it, you know, but also it's, it is herself soothing. It's her coping,

Emie: Mmm.

Seren: like whatever.

Andrea: I love the fact that she was so aware that she said, well, no, then I'll suck my thumb. I mean, she,

Seren: Yeah. She totally knows.

Andrea: I think if we were to, I was gonna say, I think if as parents, if we were less focused on directing our kids and making sure they fit in boxes, that they would thrive. So much better because they really do we don't give them enough credit.

I don't think

Emie: Mm hmm.

Andrea: really do know themselves Now we do have to put boundaries in place. Don't I'm not taking that away, but you know what I mean

Emie: But we need to let go of a lot of expectations.

Andrea: Expectations. Yeah.

Seren: I struggle with that. [00:52:00] I do. Honestly, like, especially like clothing, like I don't, I'm not like super strict about it, but like for a long time, I wouldn't let my son wear sweats to school because I was like, sweats are not learning clothes. And like, I'm not going to let you go to school looking like a slob. like, even now, like he'll like if he has like a shirt that's too long, I like try tucking into his pants. I'm like, You can't, I, I'm sorry. I can't let you leave the house looking like that. You need to your shirt . So I need to be better about just letting him go, go out in the world however he wants to look.

Andrea: You know what I love about Saren or you

Seren: uh,

Andrea: just because you are here I'm not trying is the fact that you're so real And I think that as parents, we think that therapists are going to judge us or that they're, they sit on this, you know, you know, on this [00:53:00] throne of, I do no wrong. And you are just sharing that, yes, I may be a therapist, but you know what, I'm still a person.

I'm still a parent. You know, it's okay to talk to me, you know, it's like when you run into your hairdresser at the grocery store and your hair is like, you know, all matted in the nest and you're like, Oh my God. And you're like, okay, but see, like you're a real person and you're so authentic with it. So thank you for being that

Seren: you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. I try. You know,

Emie: No, you're not trying. You're just being you, which

Seren: no, well, yeah, well, yeah, what I was gonna say, like, I, I, I really, you know, it, it took me a lot of therapy to just kind of get to the point where I like, I'm just like, this is, you know, there's, it's too much work to try to, to be something that you're not,

Emie: 100%. Well,

Andrea: and I think therapy and age, really.

Seren: very true, but also I don't, I can't expect my clients to be authentic if I'm not being [00:54:00] authentic.

Andrea: Great point. Yeah. Great point.

Emie: Yeah, we give us, you give people so many tools in this conversation and definitely insight. But yeah, I'm with Andrea. I think the authenticity and the ability to just like be imperfect and work with what you got and continue to stay open to possibility is awesome.

Seren: Thank you.

Andrea: And really, what a great example for the kids too, right?

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: I hope so.

Andrea: Yeah.

Emie: I wish we had this conversation before. I want to do it over again. I mean, I don't,

Andrea: You want to do a parenting over? I know. I mean, the things we

Emie: I could do better.

Andrea: no, but you're doing great.

Seren: You're doing amazing. You have three beautiful kids.

Emie: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I just look back and look at the mistakes. I just have to let that go.

Seren: Oh,

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: so to this day, my son [00:55:00] refuses to sleep with his door shut or really, I mean, it's not as he's becoming more of a tween. It's not as big of a thing, but like when he was a toddler, he would have these just like insane tantrums. Like So intense and he has the door to his room didn't have a lock on the outside.

And so what we would do is we would tie it to the bathroom across the hall so that he couldn't open the door and get out because I mean he needed to like re regulate in his room. And it was so it was clearly so traumatizing to him. Um, because then forever he like wouldn't sleep with his door closed.

Like, if we put him in his room, like, don't close the door, don't close the door. At one point, I was like, oh shit, like, we really did a number on him.

Andrea: Good thing I'm a therapist.

Seren: thing. Yeah, exactly. Um, but like,

Emie: feel better.

Seren: but like, I mean, in the moment, we didn't know what else to do. [00:56:00] Like, yeah, I think our whole thing, my husband and I, like, when we, like, go to conferences for our kids, like, Academics, yes, academics are important, but at the end of the day, we care that they're good people.

So, you know, I think if that's your, if you're raising a good person and your kids are good people, then I think you've done a pretty good job. All the other stuff will fall into place.

Emie: Aw.

Andrea: would be a really fun

Seren: Huh. How

Andrea: is to have people share, although I guess you could get really, but like all the stuff that they actually did wrong. Like I

Emie: Yeah, that would

Andrea: son baking soda once because I didn't, he had said something and I was like, well, I'm going to, I'm not going to wash your mouth out with soap.

I'm going to do it with baking soda. And then

Seren: did that go?

Andrea: it could be a long,

Emie: brushing your teeth.

Seren: Yeah,

Andrea: well, let's just say he came up afterwards and he started telling me that he was having a heart that his heart hurt. And I thought, so [00:57:00] then I get on the internet and I read that, oh yeah, baking soda in large amounts can actually cause heart problems. So I had to call poison control, the poison.

The poison control lady was laughing at me, telling me, I think his heart hurts because he's sad that he hurt your feelings, not that you're killing your son. But that would be a fun

Seren: was

Andrea: right?

Seren: That

Emie: That would be a good one. Ha

Andrea: But I get back

Seren: be a really Yeah,

Andrea: like, what you did, right? You're like, you're trying to keep, you're trying to keep him safe. Well, his perception was he was never going to get out of there.

Seren: right.

Andrea: You know, we were trying to do the right thing. So

Seren: That is so funny. The baking soda. That is amazing.

Andrea: it wasn't funny at the time because I was sweating bullets. Talk about anxiety at that point. I'm like, Oh my God, I killed him.

Seren: yeah How am I gonna explain this to my husband when he gets home?

Andrea: It's so funny because the lady said to me, well, how, what size was, well, how much, or yeah, what was the size of the spoon? And I'm like, [00:58:00] I don't know, just like a teaspoon. It's just, it was just a spoon like that you get out of your. And so then I had to run downstairs and I was. freaking out and my husband says, what's the matter?

I'm like, nothing, nothing. And all she was trying to determine was like, did I have a ladle or did I just have a teaspoon?

Seren: right And then did she tell you like how much it he actually needed would have had to have like consumed for it to be an issue

Andrea: Well, let's just say it is a lot more than a, than a spoon, probably even more than a ladle. But

Emie: It would have to be because my grandma used to make us brush our teeth with baking soda.

Andrea: well, that's why I thought I was like, oh, it's just going to be yucky, right? It's just going to feel yucky on your teeth. And then I was like, oh gosh, that's what I get.

Seren: And then you were like, well, shit, I should have just gone with the soap.

Emie: Yeah.

Andrea: At least soap I knew was safe, you know, and that was it. I was like, okay, there's a bunch of, you know, perfumes and soap. And I mean, how do I know it's not natural?[00:59:00] 

Seren: mean, listen, mothers who were pregnant used to smoke and drink during their pregnancy. So like, I think like

Emie: So you're okay.

Seren: soda. Yeah.

Emie: I

Seren: We won't call it CPS. Yeah.

Emie: I remember back in the nineties seeing an interview with Michelle Pfeiffer. Do you know Michelle Pfeiffer, Saren? Are you too

Seren: Yeah.

Emie: Okay. Um, and she was interviewed and she said, I just want to make sure I make enough money to pay for my kid's therapy.

Seren: I've heard that she said that. Yeah. I've heard that she said that before.

Emie: Oh, that's so funny.

Seren: Yeah.

Andrea: the reason Saren got into therapy. She's like, Michelle Pfeiffer is paying the bill. I'm going,

Seren: I told, right?

Emie: Oh,

Seren: Yeah, but community mental health does not pay like that.

Andrea: but it's, it's necessary. It is so necessary. Yeah,

Seren: I really enjoy what I, I enjoy my job. I really do.

Emie: Did I freeze? [01:00:00] Oh,

Andrea: You're the, well, your face is frozen, but your voice isn't frozen.

Emie: okay. I just looked at you and it looked like maybe I froze. Okay.

Seren: Did you have any other questions?

Emie: Yeah. Well, yeah, but we probably should wrap up. Do you want to wrap up, Andrew, since I started?

Andrea: Oh, I thought, I thought you started. I mean, I thought I started, but I'll wrap up. Sorry. This was really awkward. I was waiting for you to wrap up.

Emie: Oh, yeah. Sorry we kept you so long, too, Saren, but this was so interesting.

Seren: no. I,

Andrea: fun.

Seren: was so much fun.

Andrea: Next time we just need a glass of wine. Think of where this thing could

Emie: Yeah.

Seren: Oh my god, right? Well, I was, I had my tea and I was like, I hope they don't think I'm like drinking wine on the sly.

Andrea: Oh, we wouldn't have

Emie: we wouldn't care anyway.

Andrea: gotten through two diet Cokes since we've been here, which is real, like poison.

Seren: No, it's not.

Emie: Oh, that's awesome. I'll go have a glass of wine now.

Andrea: Yeah. No, no. You're, are you salivating? Okay. Well, [01:01:00] Saren, thank you so much. This has been a really. It was a really fun conversation with you and you had so many good nuggets of, of information for, for parents and even myself. Thank you.

Seren: Oh, thank you for having me. It was, this was, it was a pleasure. I had a lot of fun.

Andrea: thank you so much. We'll love to have you on again.

Seren: I would love that.

Emie: Thanks, Saren.